24 Jul
2007
24 Jul
'07
1:21 p.m.
hi,
Question 1:
how does batmand detect whether the internet connection is really connected to
the internet or not. Or does batmand just relays on the -g parameter.
Until now we let run a cron job that checks for the real working
gateway. Because we can not relay on the presence of the default
route. User may use a different
router to connect to the internet and just add the default route this
private router.
The problem is that the node offering a internet connection (-g)
should also be able to access other internet connection if its local
connection is brocken.
Question 2:
I'm currently checking how the HNA is working, but until now I can not
see any HNA on a second node. Firewall is enabled completely for both
nodes and each node sees the other nodes. I call batmand as follow:
Node1: batmand -t 63 -a 141.56.0.0/16 wlan0 bbs /t 2 bbc /t 2
Node2: batmand -t 63 eth1 bbs /t 2 bbc /t 2
But batmand -c -d 4 does not show any HNA messages and no HNA entry is
stored in routing table.
Beside of this the Idea to add/delete HNA without stopping batmand
would be good. e.g. batmand -c -a <add-hna>
batmand -c -A <del-hna>
Question 3:
If a node offers a ftp server (portforwarding) I like to offer this
"service" via batmand like olsrd.
A generic solution would be good to just allow to send user text
messages with the OGM.
e.g:sending: batmand -c -m "this is my message" (called requlary by
cron.d to send/update a message or command)
the running batmand will need an addional options e.g. -m (script)
that is called to process the incomming message.
e.g: batmand -m process-message-script wlan0
The advantage would be, that each user that is using batman can offer
different
services: e.g. populate a service list, news, software updates,....
Another Idea of the "-m" is to differenciate this parameter to -M
<"message">
and -m <send-script>. by calling batmand -c -m send-script, batmand
can setup stdin/stdou as binary file handle and fill a user-OGM with
binary data that is then send.
Please tell me if some of the features already present in the
batman-experimental trunk.
Kind regards
Stephan
24 Jul
24 Jul
6:35 p.m.
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Freifunk Dresden wrote:
I'm currently checking how the HNA is working, but
until now I can not
see any HNA on a second node. Firewall is enabled completely for both
nodes and each node sees the other nodes. I call batmand as follow:
Node1: batmand -t 63 -a 141.56.0.0/16 wlan0 bbs /t 2 bbc /t 2
Node2: batmand -t 63 eth1 bbs /t 2 bbc /t 2
But batmand -c -d 4 does not show any HNA messages and no HNA entry is
stored in routing table.
mmhh, the hna announcments are written into another routing table, have
you checked that ?
If a node offers a ftp server (portforwarding) I like
to offer this
"service" via batmand like olsrd.
A generic solution would be good to just allow to send user text
messages with the OGM.
This is a bad idea in my opinion. A routing protocol has one purpose
which is routing, not flooding 99% useless information just because it
COULD.
i think the right approch for service discovery is using something like
dns for example. dns is very small overheaded, allows great redundancy,
works on demand...
using TXT and SRV records, a good dns infrastructure and user frontend,
it should be easy to publish services.
here in leipzig we already layed the ground stones for a widespanning,
redundant dns network using anycast ips for redundancy.
http://wiki.freifunk.net/FF-Zone
kindly regards
Daniel
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25 Jul
25 Jul
11:50 a.m.
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Daniel Poelzleithner schrieb:
Freifunk Dresden wrote:
<removed>
here in leipzig we already layed the ground stones for a widespanning,
redundant dns network using anycast ips for redundancy.
http://wiki.freifunk.net/FF-Zone
thats less then i thought:
(Dieser Artikel enthält momentan keinen Text)
kindly regards
Daniel
greets, alex
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12:52 p.m.
Alexander Morlang schrieb:
Daniel Poelzleithner schrieb:
-> http://wiki.freifunk.net/FF-zone
;)
Regards
tetzlav
here in leipzig we already layed the ground
stones for a widespanning,
redundant dns network using anycast ips for redundancy.
thats less then i thought:
(Dieser Artikel enthält momentan keinen Text)
3:06 p.m.
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tetzlav schrieb:
Alexander Morlang schrieb:
Sorry, but this does not look like a decentral "all are equal" solution,
more like a centralized service.
i think, something like the olsr-bmf would be more interesting, it gets
metrics from the underlying meshrouting protocol but does its own
message forwarding.
Daniel Poelzleithner schrieb:
-> http://wiki.freifunk.net/FF-zone
;)
here in leipzig we already layed the ground
stones for a widespanning,
redundant dns network using anycast ips for redundancy.
http://wiki.freifunk.net/FF-Zone
thats less then i thought:
(Dieser Artikel enthält momentan keinen Text) Regards
tetzlav
Greets, Alex
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3:19 p.m.
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Alexander Morlang wrote:
Sorry, but this does not look like a decentral
"all are equal" solution,
more like a centralized service.
yes, some sort of. there is a master dns server that ensures uniquiness
of domains and at least knows how is responsible for the zones. nothing
forbids you to mirror the zones on all nodes, i just don't see any sense
in it. 4-5 slave servers should be enough even for a large city. every
zone admin can run his own masters if he wish to.
responses will be fast and redundant even if some of them die. and you
can use real dns software and can run really large zones with large
entries without wasting pressures router ram. reverse dns, dyndns, like
my notebooks is always aestas.poelzi.ff if its somewhere in freifunk...
very cool stuff. dns loc records, very nice. combined with reverse dns
allows very rfc conform routings visualisations... even can show nodes
that are offline....
i think, something like the olsr-bmf would be more
interesting, it gets
metrics from the underlying meshrouting protocol but does its own
message forwarding.
what does bmf have to do with dns. if you think about forwarding name
entries as broadcasts: this is just a wast of bandwidth. i don't even
start to think about renaming my node to www.google.de and see what
happens ;)
kindly regards
daniel
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4:05 p.m.
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Daniel Poelzleithner schrieb:
in opposite of the name plugin wich uses olsr for flooding informations,
bmf does its own flooding. as batman does not support flooding custom
payload, this would be the only way of distributing information
efficient and decentral as long there is a way to get the metrics from
the routing protocol.
And, of course, who are you, desciding for me what a waste of bandwith
in my case ist? ;-)
Alexander Morlang wrote:
with the small sideeffect of a small group controlling the a-server.
Sorry, but this does not look like a decentral
"all are equal" solution,
more like a centralized service.
yes, some sort of. there is a master dns server that ensures uniquiness
of domains and at least knows how is responsible for the zones. nothing
forbids you to mirror the zones on all nodes, i just don't see any sense
in it. 4-5 slave servers should be enough even for a large city. every
zone admin can run his own masters if he wish to.
responses will be fast and redundant even if some of them die. and you
can use real dns software and can run really large zones with large
entries without wasting pressures router ram. reverse dns, dyndns, like
my notebooks is always aestas.poelzi.ff if its somewhere in freifunk...
very cool stuff. dns loc records, very nice. combined with reverse dns
allows very rfc conform routings visualisations... even can show nodes
that are offline.... i think, something like the olsr-bmf would be
more interesting, it gets
metrics from the underlying meshrouting protocol but does its own
message forwarding.
what does bmf have to do with dns. if you think about forwarding name
entries as broadcasts: this is just a wast of bandwidth. i don't even
start to think about renaming my node to www.google.de and see what
happens ;)
kindly regards
daniel
cu in finowfurt, alex
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5:25 p.m.
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Alexander Morlang wrote:
with the small sideeffect of a small group controlling
the a-server.
yes. i prefer a group of people i can trust controlling the a-server
then trusting every packet someone, somewhere in the network is sending.
hello, i'm www.google.de, how are you :)
by the way, ok, with hna annoucements faking some site is still easy,
but just because one instance of the network has problems, there is no
need to repeat ourself. i.e. dnssec for example.
in opposite of the name plugin wich uses olsr for
flooding informations,
bmf does its own flooding. as batman does not support flooding custom
payload, this would be the only way of distributing information
efficient and decentral as long there is a way to get the metrics from
the routing protocol.
by the way, is see it comming. packetstorms through circular broadcast
packets. i have SEEN links that have 1.5 seconds delay, god knows why.
two of those and you crack the duplicate lookup buffer...
i'm not against broadcast in general. but everything i get which i'm
actually not interested in, or is duplicated information (something i
already know), is simply a wast of bandwidth. It's easy to say, ohh,
some bytes here, some bytes there. if you look at a real mesh, you
simply see to much useless traffic. there are nodes in freifunk leipzig,
that have 80kb/s olsr traffic. 80kb/s, some people would dream about
this speed, but just wasted away....
kindly regards
daniel
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26 Jul
26 Jul
12:33 p.m.
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Daniel Poelzleithner schrieb:
Thats a specific problem of implementation wich could be solved.
Alexander Morlang wrote:
i distrust central structures, doing it decentral is one of the main
things in meshnetworking. It sounds, you want to establish centralized
structures of power for security reasons and telling about the nice
advantage of reliability.
sounds familiar, i think we both are fighting against this things in
realworld, so i do not want to introduce it in the freifunk world.
with the small sideeffect of a small group
controlling the a-server.
yes. i prefer a group of people i can trust controlling the a-server
then trusting every packet someone, somewhere in the network is sending.
hello, i'm www.google.de, how are you :)
by the way, ok, with hna annoucements faking some site is still easy,
but just because one instance of the network has problems, there is no
need to repeat ourself. i.e. dnssec for example. in opposite of the name plugin wich uses olsr for
flooding informations,
bmf does its own flooding. as batman does not support flooding custom
payload, this would be the only way of distributing information
efficient and decentral as long there is a way to get the metrics from
the routing protocol.
by the way, is see it comming. packetstorms through circular broadcast
packets. i have SEEN links that have 1.5 seconds delay, god knows why.
two of those and you crack the duplicate lookup buffer...
i'm not against broadcast in general. but everything i get which i'm
actually not interested in, or is duplicated information (something i
already know), is simply a wast of bandwidth. It's easy to say, ohh,
some bytes here, some bytes there. if you look at a real mesh, you
simply see to much useless traffic. there are nodes in freifunk leipzig,
that have 80kb/s olsr traffic. 80kb/s, some people would dream about
this speed, but just wasted away....
sure, imagine a bunch of 20 nodes periodically polling all nodes for
decentral information, because they do not trust the central instance,
how much traffic would that be? and, you cannot do anything against it,
except censorship on ip-level.
kindly regards
daniel
cu, alex
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25 Jul
25 Jul
4:21 p.m.
2007/7/25, Alexander Morlang <alx(a)dd19.de>de>:
Sorry, but this does not look like a decentral
"all are equal" solution,
more like a centralized service.
i think, something like the olsr-bmf would be more interesting, it gets
metrics from the underlying meshrouting protocol but does its own
message forwarding.
Yes, something like the olsr-bmf + zeroconf solution...
Ciao,
Claudio
3:05 p.m.
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Alexander Morlang wrote:
thats less then i thought:
(Dieser Artikel enthält momentan keinen Text)
;)
http://wiki.freifunk.net/FF-zone
greetings
daniel
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2:56 p.m.
Hi,
This is a bad idea in my opinion. A routing protocol
has one purpose
which is routing, not flooding 99% useless information just because it
COULD.
i think the right approch for service discovery is using something like
dns for example. dns is very small overheaded, allows great redundancy,
works on demand...
using TXT and SRV records, a good dns infrastructure and user frontend,
it should be easy to publish services.
I totally agree to your point. Just because you can waste bandwidth with OLSR
so easily there is no need for us to do the same.
Regards,
Marek
27 Jul
27 Jul
2:07 p.m.
Hi,
this question was a bit forgotten. :-)
how does batmand detect whether the internet
connection is really connected
to the internet or not. Or does batmand just relays on the -g parameter.
Until now we let run a cron job that checks for the real working
gateway. Because we can not relay on the presence of the default
route. User may use a different
router to connect to the internet and just add the default route this
private router.
The problem is that the node offering a internet connection (-g)
should also be able to access other internet connection if its local
connection is brocken.
First of all, "-g" is just flooded through the network. We also want some kind
of "dyngw"-plugin but with a better approach: By using tunnels to the gateway
batman is in a far better situation than OLSR. The "is internet really
available" check can be done on the client side and is therefore much more
reliable. With batman 0.3 all the packet flow towards and from the internet
is going through batman. Batman just has to check whether traffic is coming
back through the tunnel after sending packets to the internet. If this is not
the case the batman node offering the internet is blacklisted and another
gateway is chosen.
This has not been implemented yet but all the neccessary basics for that
feature are completed by now. Expect this feature to come in the following
weeks.
Regards,
Marek
2:43 p.m.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 4:07 PM, Marek Lindner wrote:
By using tunnels to the gateway
batman is in a far better situation than OLSR
guys, please mention, that in OLSRd this is simply problematic for
you in *Berlin* where you use private IPs.
And therefore the NAT causes problems. The tunnel trick works
*just*as*well* for OLSRd BTW.
I just often have the feeling that you want to dissmiss olsrd becasue
batman *has* to be better, since it is already in the name. That
sucks a bit. Well, whatever...
I think both approaches have something to it. OLSRd is well tested
(and has ugly code, yes) but batman really has to be still tested out
in the wild with many nodes. A routing protocol evolves with the load
that is applied to it.
That is the key issue in my opinion.
Anything new with the approaches to create an RFC for batman by the way?
ciao,
aaron.
3:23 p.m.
Hi,
guys, please mention, that in OLSRd this is simply
problematic for
you in *Berlin* where you use private IPs.
the majority of all wireless mesh networks out there don't have a good
relationship to an ISP which routes all the traffic and sponsors public
IPs ...
I really think you have a nice solution in Vienna which unfortunately is not
reproducible everywhere.
And therefore the NAT causes problems. The tunnel
trick works
*just*as*well* for OLSRd BTW.
So far OLSRd has no builtin tunnel functionality and that's why you can't do
the same trick.
By the way, you should know that the dyngw plugin is real pain. Too often it
enables or disables the Internet connection where this is totally
unneccessary. And it does not solve the problem. It just tries to hide a flaw
because I rely on the information the gateway sends me.
I just often have the feeling that you want to
dissmiss olsrd becasue
batman *has* to be better, since it is already in the name. That
sucks a bit. Well, whatever...
Aaron, please don't feel personally attacked by this. You know that we started
batman because we were not happy with many things in OLSR.
The only reason for me to mention OLSR was that many people here expect us to
redo all the things OLSR does. And I just want to remind them that batman is
a different project.
I think both approaches have something to it. OLSRd is
well tested
(and has ugly code, yes) but batman really has to be still tested out
in the wild with many nodes. A routing protocol evolves with the load
that is applied to it.
That is the key issue in my opinion.
I absolutely agree.
Anything new with the approaches to create an RFC for
batman by the way?
We are working on it.
Regards,
Marek
4:03 p.m.
I just often have the feeling that you want to
dissmiss olsrd becasue
batman *has* to be better, since it is already in the name. That
sucks a bit. Well, whatever...
Aaron, please don't feel personally attacked by this. You know that
we started
batman because we were not happy with many things in OLSR.
The only reason for me to mention OLSR was that many
people here
expect us to
redo all the things OLSR does. And I just want to remind them that
batman is
a different project.
nono... redo everything is like asking for a bit to much. Agreed. But
step by step...
I think both approaches have something to it.
OLSRd is well tested
(and has ugly code, yes) but batman really has to be still tested out
in the wild with many nodes. A routing protocol evolves with the load
that is applied to it.
That is the key issue in my opinion.
I absolutely agree.
Anything new with the approaches to create an RFC
for batman by
the way?
We are working on it.
Regards,
Marek
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4:40 p.m.
Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2007 18:03 schrieb Aaron Kaplan:
I don't feel personally attacked at all :)
But the unknown reader might get that impression ...
I just again and again get the feeling from batman
people that sort
of "everything else sucks"
Like academia sucks, olsr sucks etc etc.
But that is a bit contra-productive. That is what I wanted to point out.
Where does this feeling come from ?
Because of "better approach to mobile ad-hoc networking" (you said: "since
it
is already in the name") ?! Do you have in mind what OLSR means ? OPTIMIZED
Link State routing - that means OLSR is the first link state routing protocol
which optimizes ?!
GNU = Gnu is Not Unix => is Unix bad ?
KDE => Kool Desktop Environment => the others are not cool ?
VIM => Vi IMproved => vi seems to be bad ?!
We could continue this list a very long time.
Or is it because we always compare with OLSR ?
Don't forget that OLSR is the de-facto standard for routing protocols. So, we
compare against something the people know. Have you ever listened to a SVN
talk ? They compare to CVS. What is so bad about showing real problems in
existing solutions and offering something better ?
Please remember - OLSR is so good and well known because we helped it quite a
lot. Much of the intial testing was done in Berlin. Afterwards we disabled
MPR and Hysteris, developed ETX and Fisheye. It is not your child only. It
was not easy for us to find out that we have to restart from scratch if we
really want to solve the problems OLSR has.
We learned a lot from it and now we move on.
nono... redo everything is like asking for a bit to
much. Agreed. But
step by step...
I meant they want us to clone the way OLSR solves certain problems and we
don't want that. It may need some time and effort but we want to attack the
real source of the problems.
Regards,
Marek
8:41 p.m.
On Jul 27, 2007, at 6:40 PM, Marek Lindner wrote:
Am Freitag, 27. Juli 2007 18:03 schrieb Aaron Kaplan:
I think there has been enough academia bashing (completely useless!)
in the past.
If you look up the old mails then you know what I mean. I am quite
convinced that academia already overtook
the freifunk style networks some time ago! And you just don't notice it.
Again: I do NOT really think about OLSR so much in particular.
I just wanted to give you some feedback.
You could also sum the feedback up as:
"Hochmut/Arroganz kommt vor dem Fall"
I hope I am wrong.
nevertheless, I am very curious when the next real world tests come out.
Well, again. Just my personal feelings and observations. I hope I am
wrong.
ciao,
a.
I don't feel personally attacked at all :)
But the unknown reader might get that impression ...
I just again and again get the feeling from
batman people that sort
of "everything else sucks"
Like academia sucks, olsr sucks etc etc.
But that is a bit contra-productive. That is what I wanted to
point out.
Where does this feeling come from ?
28 Jul
28 Jul
8:03 a.m.
Hello,
On Friday 27 July 2007 22:41, Aaron Kaplan wrote:
I think there has been enough academia bashing (completely useless!)
in the past.
If you look up the old mails then you know what I mean.
Sorry, I still have difficulties to understand. I looked up the old mails (of
this mailing list) and found only one mail mentioning "academic" and that was
in march, so i am not sure if you are referring to that.
Anyway, if there was bashing (on whatever) then I am sorry, but it also would
be just fair to give a reasonable hint (in a reasonable time) to the
statements that caused the bad feelings. Otherwise it causes just reproaches
without leaving a chance to defend/explain and even worse at a time where
nobody remembers what the actual thread was about.
The same applies to olsr but here i want to add that comparing batman with
existing state of the art solutions is usual and wanted. I admit , personally
I might be a bit biased but thats why we have this public mailing list, so
that everybody can question the given statements and come up with precise and
concrete counter arguments.
I just again and again get the feeling from batman
people that sort
of "everything else sucks"
Like academia sucks, olsr sucks etc etc.
But that is a bit contra-productive. That is what I wanted to
point out.
Where does this feeling come from ? I am quite
convinced that academia already overtook
the freifunk style networks some time ago! And you just don't notice it.
Can you provide further (background-)links on that (especially interesting
would be those based on real world tests as addressed below)?
best regards,
axel
Again: I do NOT really think about OLSR so much in
particular.
I just wanted to give you some feedback.
You could also sum the feedback up as:
"Hochmut/Arroganz kommt vor dem Fall"
I hope I am wrong.
nevertheless, I am very curious when the next real world tests come out.
Well, again. Just my personal feelings and observations. I hope I am
wrong.
ciao,
a.
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27 Jul
27 Jul
2:59 p.m.
Marek,
First of all, "-g" is just flooded through
the network. We
also want some kind of "dyngw"-plugin but with a better approach:
By using tunnels to the gateway batman is in a far better situation
than OLSR. The "is internet really available" check can be done on
the client side and is therefore much more
it's about the gateway himself (not a client-of-the-gateway).
A gateway router (has to/)should check his default route and change
his role to 'ordinary-client' => switch working state from -g to
-r/-p Mode. May think about NATed LAN-clients, too...
The "working-tunnel-check" is good tool against 'vandalism' or
mis-configuration in the hand of a gateway-client, but it's no
protection for the gateway against vandalism (i.e.) of his ISP...
Lui
(stucking just in the mentioned situation)
3:31 p.m.
Hi,
it's about the gateway himself (not a
client-of-the-gateway).
A gateway router (has to/)should check his default route and change
his role to 'ordinary-client' => switch working state from -g to
-r/-p Mode. May think about NATed LAN-clients, too...
this is quite difficult to implement. The dyngw plugin tries to do exactly the
same thing. Various approaches were already tested and they all had their
problems. How do you want to find out whether internet is available or not ?
Ping, traceroute or dns ? As far as I remember we always had situations where
this detection failed.
The latest example: Run OLSR with the dyngw plugin on a batman host which is
searching for internet (-r). The plugin will find out that internet is
available via batman and happily announces a default route in the OLSR
network ...
I think the difficult part are the endless scenarios we would have to cover.
But if someone has a good idea I certainly will implement it. :-)
Regards,
Marek
2 Aug
2 Aug
2:26 p.m.
Hello,
On Dienstag 24 Juli 2007, Freifunk Dresden wrote:
[...]
Question 2:
I'm currently checking how the HNA is working, but until now I can not
see any HNA on a second node. Firewall is enabled completely for both
nodes and each node sees the other nodes. I call batmand as follow:
Node1: batmand -t 63 -a 141.56.0.0/16 wlan0 bbs /t 2 bbc /t 2
Node2: batmand -t 63 eth1 bbs /t 2 bbc /t 2
But batmand -c -d 4 does not show any HNA messages and no HNA entry is
stored in routing table.
Indeed, seemed something has been missed (sorry for late reply).
Can you try something above rv489
debul-level 3 should show (batmand -c -d 3):
Adding route to 10.20.0.222/32 via 10.20.0.2 (table 65 - eth0:bat)
and
ip route ls table 65
10.20.0.222 via 10.20.0.2 dev eth0 proto static
Beside of this the Idea to add/delete HNA without
stopping batmand
would be good. e.g. batmand -c -a <add-hna>
batmand -c -A <del-hna>
I also like the idea of dynamically changing some parameters but on the other
hand, what are the negative side-effects of restarting a daemon ?
- A client connected to the daemon might temporary loose connection
- Do you know others?
[...]
Another Idea of the "-m" is to differenciate this parameter to -M
<"message"> and -m <send-script>. by calling batmand -c -m
send-script,
batmand can setup stdin/stdou as binary file handle and fill a user-OGM
with binary data that is then send.
Even if such message-flooding ist not implemented I just thought of whether
there exist some standardized formats to announce such services (maybe the
community network markup language CNML idea) ?
ciao,
axel
5712
days inactive
5721
days old
b.a.t.m.a.n@lists.open-mesh.org
21 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
Aaron Kaplan -
Alexander Morlang -
Axel Neumann -
clauz＠ninux.org -
Daniel Poelzleithner -
Freifunk Dresden -
Lui -
Marek Lindner -
tetzlav